mailing-list for TeXmacs Users

[Frank <address@hidden>]

Hi all,

> Maybe have a PDF is reasonable, but I'm not sure people would like to spend 
> 20 euros on a file and not 50 of a high quality (and heavy :)) book.

I would like to second that an electronic version is important (I have bought 
both an electronic copy and a physical copy of some book). The disadvantage 
of physical copies is that one cannot carry them everywhere, especially if 
moving a country to another every 1-2 years (doing postdocs, for example).

> I doubt a PDF can be protected against copy. (go to libgen and see for 
> yourself :))

But neither could physical copy prevent from scanning. At least up until now, 
there is no technique to prevent absolutely the pirates: we can only fight 
against them by ethics and laws.

Best wishes,
Frank

On 11/19/20, Massimiliano Gubinelli wrote:
> Cher Pierre-Henri, deal all,
>
> > On 19. Nov 2020, at 14:11, Pierre-Henri Jondot <address@hidden 
> > <mailto:address@hidden>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I rediscovered TeXmacs last april, after a very long hiatus. Indeed I tried 
> > it in the 2000’s and, while I was really impressed by the features, I really 
> > got frustrated and soon got back to edit all my texts with LaTeX.
> >
> > I gave it another try this year when I tackled some presentations that I 
> > intended to point my soon-to-be students to, for them to have a look during 
> > the summer and prepare for the new academic year… Nothing fancy, mostly 
> > complex numbers and some calculus. The integration of a simple drawing module 
> > and not having to look for the most appropriate drawing application to 
> > interface with Latex/beamer (and learn to use it) convinced me to choose 
> > TeXmacs.
> >
> > The result are those youtube videos (in French) :
> > https://youtu.be/2LnxJdJb7U4 <https://youtu.be/2LnxJdJb7U4>
> > https://youtu.be/5Fcl56--VJ4 <https://youtu.be/5Fcl56--VJ4>
> > https://youtu.be/TNwodosMR44 <https://youtu.be/TNwodosMR44>
> > https://youtu.be/rU94hEGOJxM <https://youtu.be/rU94hEGOJxM>
> > https://youtu.be/-_dunq3BAbM <https://youtu.be/-_dunq3BAbM>
> > https://youtu.be/qdlPcF-z1ug <https://youtu.be/qdlPcF-z1ug>
> >
> > and the TeXmacs source files are there :
> > https://cahier-de-prepa.fr/mpsi-kju/docs?rep=176 
> > <https://cahier-de-prepa.fr/mpsi-kju/docs?rep=176>
>
>
>   very nice videos! can we add them to the list of TeXmacs videos we maintain 
> on youtube?
>
>
> > Now, what I’d like to say is that there is a steep learning curve with 
> > TeXmacs, even if you’re not computer illiterate.
> >
> > It would make sense to make TeXmacs my first choice when editing scientific 
> > documents, but I am still facing many walls.
>
> It would be very useful to have an idea of the difficulties and the concepual 
> wall that a beginner user faces, this would allow us to write better 
> tutorials. Can you explain the stumbling blocks you faced?
>
>
> > An example of difficulty I just encountered and for which I was about to ask 
> > for help here : starting from a blank document and inserting a session, be it 
> > python or scheme, I wondered how to terminate the session to go back to 
> > normal editing, then why not a bit later in the document entering a new 
> > session but… close session just terminated the process and I still had a 
> > python or a scheme prompt, and typing anything just restarted the process… 
> > (according to the documentation, this is not a bug, but a feature, and I 
> > understand why it makes sense)
>
> I'm not sure what you mean: kill the process or just go on with the text? In 
> the second case I just position the cursor with the mouse after the session 
> and continue writing. I'm sure there is an appropriate command, but it works 
> for me just as well..
>
>
> > Being with a mac keyboard it took me a very long time to find out that I had 
> > to page-down (which doesn’t exist per se on a mac keyboard) to allow to the 
> > cursor to go outside the session… Try it with a mouse and not using page-down 
> > and you’ll understand I guess my frustration...
>
> No it is easy: just click on the right margin, out of the session, the cursor 
> will position just after the session, then you can press enter and continue 
> writing norma text. Did I understood your difficulty correclty?
>
>
> > So there comes my question : Joris often redirects users to the Jolly Writer 
> > for further reference, and I guess it might be a good read for me, as well as 
> > for my students (it could be a good alternative to beamer for their 
> > presentations) so I suggested our librarian to order one. I might want to 
> > have one except it is expensive and this is the kind of document I would much 
> > rather read on my iPad or the screen of my computer than on paper.
> >
> > For a pdf, maybe watermark protected, I would be willing to pay a good 20 
> > euros… (but maybe not 49…)
>
> My opinion on this matter is the following:
>
> 1) Bundled with TeXmacs there is a substantial user manual (280 pages) which 
> contains all the basic features, there are some tutorial on the web page too, 
> and a lot of videos on youtube. In my experience people do not take time to 
> even look at the user guide before giving a try. The problem is that TeXmacs 
> is designed very differently wrt. a usual text editor so the user is confused 
> by his\her expectations.
>
> 2) The book Joris wrote (TJW) is very well written and of quality. I've just checked on amazon 
> and books on LaTeX (e.g. Lamports') sell in "Broché" form at 49 euros, and other books 
> are at 30 always in "Broché". So I feel the price for TJW is more than fair in my 
> opinion. It is not the only source for information and to me should be considered as a reasonable 
> way to show support for the project. Essentially there is several people which spend time on this 
> and Joris is the one which spend (by far) the larger amount of time on developing and making 
> TeXmacs better (and removing the bugs I put in...). You can check on savannah the commit log to 
> get an idea of the amount of programming time TeXmacs requires.
>
> Maybe have a PDF is reasonable, but I'm not sure people would like to spend 
> 20 euros on a file and not 50 of a high quality (and heavy :)) book.
>
> 3) I should say, I'm reading TJW since few months and I find really pleasant, 
> it is way more than a manual, and discuss general problem of creating 
> beautiful technical documentations in many aspects.
>
>
> > Would Joris consider letting us buy a pdf instead ?
>
> Maybe he should consider to distribute it via the Apple Store Books or on the 
> Kindle. I doubt a PDF can be protected against copy. (go to libgen and see 
> for yourself :))
>
>
> 4) I would suggest to Joris to create maybe an account on services like 
> "Patreon" or the like, people which supports him would have priviledged 
> access to bug fixes. :)
>
> > Regards,
>
> Best,
> Max
>
> > Pierre-Henri
> >
> > P.S. : I just received my M1 apple macbook air, and the intel built 1.99.15 
> > version of TeXmacs works just fine and doesn’t feel any slower than with my 
> > quadcore-i7 macbook from 2012...
>
> We will have soon to ship Universal2 apps....