mailing-list for TeXmacs Users

[Gubinelli Massimiliano <address@hidden>]

Hi all,

 we've discussed the issue with the name at few times in the past,  
both in person and on the web (cfr. the link given by Alvaro in this  
thread). I agree that TeXmacs  does not sound bad at all, especially  
for a regular TeXmacs user... But nonetheless there is  some  
impression (maybe misled) that the prefix TeX- in the name convey the  
utterly wrong idea that TeXmacs is an interface to TeX like many  
others avaliables (Lyx, Kile, TeXshop, TeXworks, TeXnicCenter, etc...)  
For that point of view, TeXmacs is both weird (due to its old- 
fashioned interface -- sorry Joris) and bad, since when the lambda  
user discover that there is not full LaTeX support is just horrified.  
So in my opinion the name attracts only the wrong class of users  
(those who are looking for a TeX frontend) and the reality of the  
software repel them since it is not what they where looking for. My  
personal experience is that it took me many occasional visits to the  
TeXmacs web page to finally understand the real quality of the program  
and the big difference between this kind of programs and the others  
I've mentioned. I think between the first time I get to knew TeXmacs  
and the moment I get involved in developing passed 3/5 years.

So I hope you understand my wish to get rid of the TeX prefix (which  
does not mean that I do not like TeX). Another problem is that TeXmacs  
output looks too much like TeX's that even if I tell people that  
TeXmacs does not use TeX they will not believe me.... But I will not  
propose to get rid of CM fonts altogheter (at least not now...).

Name does not have to convey meaning. Lyx for example is a very good  
name without any direct link to the software. There is also not real  
need to change the name (especially if no good alternative could be  
found). But we need to rethink the "marketing" strategy. Not to make  
money, but to ensure a future to this open source software by allowing  
a larger user community. This would mean: better documentation, more  
tutorials, more development (hopefully). These are my concerns wrt  
this software.

best,

Massimiliano



On 11 déc. 09, at 13:51, Peter Rapčan wrote:

> Hi Alvaro (and the list),
>
> I am sorry but I have a slightly different view of the name matter.
>
> The only thing that ever "confused" me was the description of the  
> texmacs package in fink: "TeX-based WYSIWYG editor" - which is  
> obviously misleading. As far as connotations of the name itself go,  
> texmacs probably evokes something useful for writing technical stuff  
> (which is a correct connotation) maybe by doing the phonetical  
> association tech<->tex, and the macs part could, in the similar way,  
> macs->max, mean something that enables you to do the maximum in this  
> field. At least these are the connotations I have got when first  
> seeing the name. I am much more prone to think that the "macs" part  
> would like to say something about the program being made for mac  
> users, than to have anything with Emacs ;-).
>
> Your point of view (and that of many others as I see on the list) is  
> that a common user knows what tex, or emacs is. I guarantee you,  
> that a common user has never used these programs nor heard of them  
> and thus there is no way to be afraid of texmacs being confused with  
> them.
>
> If you really want to change the name (which is unnecessary, in my  
> opinion) and make it absolutely tex and emacs independent,  just  
> name it TechMax (or just stop using the tex part "typeset" as if it  
> were the real TeX.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
>
> On Dec 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Alvaro Tejero Cantero wrote:
>
> > Dear Madhusudan,
> >
> > I am afraid you're wrong.
> >
> > > I think that TeXmacs is almost the perfect name for the program.
> >
> > Yes if the target is to confuse everybody.
>
>
> > It has TeX
> > > support,
> >
> > Wrong. It exports (not 1:1) to LaTeX, runs BibTeX for the  
> > bibliography
> > and can use TeX fonts. Employing TeX in the name triggers the wrong
> > expectations - you seem yourself not to have understood what the
> > program does alone from the name... Once more: TeXmacs has its own
> > typesetter. It does not run TeX for positioning boxes.
> >
> > > and is almost as versatile as Emacs.
> >
> > for many people (especially the target group of TeXmacs) the
> > association upon hearing "Emacs" is to a horribly complicated  
> > program,
> > that requires learning arcane keybindings even for the most basic
> > operations, that uses a weird terminology and that sports a cryptic
> > and nonstandard interface.
> >
> > N.B. I am a happy user of Emacs myself, I am here just portraying a
> > very common reaction independently of whether it does justice to
> > Emacs.
> >
> > If you'd like to underline the programmable aspect of the editor, I
> > don't think this is of interest to users that don't know yet the
> > program. A really important property of TeXmacs however is that it
> > treats the document as an structured tree which can be modified live.
> >
> > I would have perhaps preferred
> > > something like SciTeXWriter (or SciTeXmaster, given that it is  
> > > more than
> > > just a writer), but TeXmacs does nicely.
> >
> > No mumble-jumble of amputated words can do justice to a reasonably
> > featureful piece of software. Following that rule one could call  
> > Paris
> > SeinEiffCoeursées.
> >
> > > Your other proposed name is obscure sounding, and if anything,
> >
> > _Your_ name sounds obscure to me. I hope you understand that this  
> > is a
> > relative perception and that you cannot fully satisfy a global
> > audience. You just need something unique enough and to dispense with
> > the need for denotation (you can still use connotation). Quipu would
> > become familiar as well as any other name; surely we will receive
> > other good suggestions.
> >
> > does not
> > > convey anything about the functionality of the program to the  
> > > potential
> > > userbase.
> >
> > The current one gets the wrong message across.
> >
> > > Name changes are usually fraught with confusion, and unless there
> > > is a really massive upside, best not done.
> >
> > The upcoming release of a QT-based version is exactly the  
> > opportunity.
> > TeXmacs is massively undermarketed in regard to what is capable of
> > doing.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Álvaro.
> >
> > > With regards.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Gubinelli Massimiliano
> > > <address@hidden> wrote:
> > > > (almost crossposting from address@hidden)
> > > > Dear all,
> > > > I would like to revive once more the debate on the name for the
> > > > TeXmacs program. There are many reasons for believing that the  
> > > > current
> > > > name does not serve very well the popularity of the program. I've  
> > > > just
> > > > come across to another possibility (among many other already  
> > > > proposed
> > > > and lost somewhere in the internet):
> > > > *  Quipu (or kipu, or khipu) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu).
> > > > Apparently this is the ancient way Incas had to keep various kind
> > > > of  informations and seems to mean "knot" so there is some link  
> > > > with
> > > > mathematics and with structured information. The images of Quipus  
> > > > make
> > > > me think to trees (of TeXmacs tags).
> > > >
> > > > Here en excerpt of the wikipedia page (nice and worth reading)
> > > >
> > > > "
> > > > Most of the information recorded on the quipus consists of  
> > > > numbers in
> > > > a decimal system;[1] see The encoding system below.
> > > > Some of the knots, as well as other features such as color, are
> > > > thought to represent non-numeric information, which has not been
> > > > deciphered. It is generally thought that the system did not include
> > > > phonetic symbols analogous to letters of the alphabet. However Gary
> > > > Urton has suggested that the quipus used a binary system which  
> > > > could
> > > > record phonological or logographicdata.
> > > > "
> > > >
> > > > Another possible name :
> > > > * Tiamat (Tiamat is another mathematical authoring tool)
> > > > which has the benefit to allow to conserve the extension .tm
> > > > Best,
> > > > Massimiliano
> > > > ps: thanks to Martin for correcting my previous post on texmacs- 
> > > > dev.