mailing-list for TeXmacs Users

[Massimiliano Gubinelli <address@hidden>]

I think that the blog is still not ready (will ever be) for "initial 
discussion", the forum seems a better place. When some more solid proposal 
materialise, then we can draft it in the form of a proposal which would be 
more stable and suitable for an article in the blog. 

Max


> On 13. Nov 2020, at 12:34, TeXmacs <address@hidden> wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Maybe we can stop this thread for now.
> 
> I think that this is a good kind of discussion to put on Max' new blog.
> It raises the larger question of what kind of general interface we want:
> how much detail should be exposed to the user, where to put it,
> how to make it easy to learn from the interface, etc.
> 
> Looking at other software, there are many options around.
> M$ Word inflated the toolbars into toolpanes that take half of your screen.
> MacOS Pages makes extensive use of side panes.
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice use an interface from the 20th century.
> Some new applications may use the purified kind of interfaces that Amir 
> talks about;
> I guess that this is also inspired by the smartphone revolution.
> 
> On Max' blog we could discuss the pros and cons of these various options,
> while keeping in mind that TeXmacs is particular in the sense that
> it contains many macros, whence the need of a very context sensitive 
> interface.
> 
> Best wishes, --Joris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 09:08:46AM +0000, Frank wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> On the other hand, for the UI, I don't know how texmacs depends on Qt, and 
>> I don't know how flexible is the interface that Qt provides. But I find 
>> that the way that new GNOME desktop organizes seems a good idea: the 
>> functionality is driven by command: when you input something (eg. Font), 
>> GNOME desktop will search for that functionality (eg. GNOME tweak -> Font 
>> settings). I suppose that if texmacs would implement this, we should not 
>> do it manually, but using something that Qt furnishes: an interface to 
>> search the pattern among all dialogs, settings and buttons (it is quite 
>> generic and I support that it is part of Qt).
>> 
>> Best,
>> Frank
>> 
>> 于 November 13, 2020 8:49:43 AM UTC, Massimiliano Gubinelli 
>> <address@hidden> 写到:
>>> I find all this discussion a bit empty and not well determined. An UI,
>>> by definition cannot be removed, it is just the way an application
>>> interacts with the user:
>>> 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface>
>>> 
>>> Unless we make more precise the proposal I do not see reason to
>>> continue. Maybe Amir means a Graphical UI? Or just the toolbar? Or
>>> what?
>>> 
>>> Max
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 13. Nov 2020, at 08:54, Henri Girard <address@hidden> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I used texmacs because there was an UI (very beginners with texmacs
>>> though I use it for years) if it is taken away I don't see the use of
>>> texmacs ?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Le 12/11/2020 à 23:21, Ibrahima Fall a écrit :
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> For me it is better to show the UI by default. Hiding it can be made
>>> possible for some advanced users.
>>>>> 
>>>>> best regards
>>>>> 
>>>>> Le jeu. 12 nov. 2020 à 21:34, Amir Michail <address@hidden
>>> <mailto:address@hidden>> a écrit :
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 4:24 PM, Massimiliano Gubinelli
>>> <address@hidden <mailto:address@hidden>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What about people that will complain that the UI is too terse and
>>> would prefer to have buttons  (even if 1997'ish) around?
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As a first step, you would hide the UI by default. Users could
>>> always change the default to reveal some always visible UI elements.
>>>>> 
>>>>> After that, you could think about how to reduce the need for always
>>> visible UI elements by revealing UI elements only when necessary. When
>>> that is accomplished, the need for users to turn on always visible UI
>>> elements is reduced.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Amir
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Max
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 12. Nov 2020, at 22:21, Amir Michail <address@hidden
>>> <mailto:address@hidden>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Massimiliano Gubinelli
>>> <address@hidden <mailto:address@hidden>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 12. Nov 2020, at 22:01, Amir Michail <address@hidden
>>> <mailto:address@hidden>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The main strength of TeXmacs is not its UI but rather its
>>> WYSIWYG editing of high quality math documents. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So why not hide the UI by default so this main strength is more
>>> obvious to everyone?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What do you mean? 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure we have to go along with every single comment in
>>> social networks from people which never tried the program. You cannot
>>> please everyone. Maybe more "fancy" icons would attract "fancy" people.
>>> But then what?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> First impressions matter. If the UI is not considered particularly
>>> innovative, then why not hide it and focus on what makes TeXmacs
>>> amazing?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also, many people find always visible UI elements distracting.
>>> It’s better to focus on the document itself and only show UI elements
>>> as needed.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If somebody come by with nice replacements to the icons, I think
>>> Joris would be the first to adopt them.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Max
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> P.S. See this discussion:
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/jsyv18/an_overview_of_texmacs_from_altitude_or_why_it/
>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/jsyv18/an_overview_of_texmacs_from_altitude_or_why_it/>
>>>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
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