- From: Henri Lesourd <address@hidden>
- To: Magnus Rohde <address@hidden>
- Cc: address@hidden
- Subject: Re: [TeXmacs] New mode for graphics
- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:10:59 +0200
In general, I think that the really important thing is to succeed in
finding your own way, not to compare yourself with others ; but as
far as Xfig is concerned, of course I --must-- disagree with you : it
is in fact quite realistic to say that **today**, we are already
successfully competing on their very turf ! ;-)
If by "successfully competing" you mean failing miserably, then I
agree with you ;-). The graphics mode, as it is now, does not even
come close to any drawing program I have used since 1993.
When I mentioned Xfig and Illustrator it was just as examples for a
type of program usually referred to as drawing programs and not a
reference to these specific programs. And I really don't think that
the graphics mode in TeXmacs will ever become a serious choice when it
comes to drawing anything more than a few lines or very simple
sketches (a bit like the drawing thingy in M$ Word).
I would be glad if you could prove me wrong, of course. :-)
Your criticism is in fact very harsh ; this is not forbidden : but then,
in order to be meaningful, you should be able to point to precise points
; just saying "doesn't come close to any drawing program" without giving
details of what you really mean is useless : I cannot use such a very
vague information to improve the software.
So as far as Xfig is concerned, I would say that, to use your own words,
we come quite close to it : the current version of the graphics mode of
TeXmacs contains most of the features that can be found in Xfig, and it
is implemented in a much more user-friendly way. Some points :
a) Xfig is not fully wysiwyg : when moving a point of a curve, you only
see the polyline of the control points ; in TeXmacs, you see the real
curve actually moving ;
b) the interface of Xfig is rather unintuitive : there is a mode for
creating a new curve, another mode for moving the points of a curve, a
third mode to add a new point to the curve, and a fourth mode to delete
one point on the curve ! In TeXmacs, the interface is much better : use
the right button to create a new curve and add new points, drag and drop
a point to move it, drag and drop an edge to insert a new point, and
click the middle button to remove a point. It should be noted that in
TeXmacs, when you move the cursor, you instantaneously can see the
active object under cursor : in Xfig, you see nothing. Etc. ;
c) Most of the features available in Xfig are also available **right
now** in the texmacs graphical editor, especially features for embedding
LaTeX-like quality texts into a graphics. Xfig can do it very well, but
again, it is not very convenient : in TeXmacs, you can just cut & paste
an equation from the text inside one of your graphical boxes ;
Given these facts, I think I clearly showed why, in my opinion, it is
**today** that we can say that the graphics mode in TeXmacs comes close
to Xfig (I discuss specifically Xfig here : of course, I do not claim
that we come close to any drawing program). So my question is : why do
you think that the current version of the graphics in TeXmacs would fail
miserably, if one compares it to Xfig ? (be specific, please).
You are correct for the very small minority of people for which
software freedom matters. For the rest it is a matter of value for
money, and when it comes to Illustrator/Corel Draw/FreeHand they offer
real value for money, when compared to the graphics mode in TeXmacs as
it is now.
Money is not relevant for defining what value is. Rather, value is
defined in the first place, and money is then used as a tool that allows
people to invest in this or that particular value.
In other words : the fact that some software is free and some other
software is not free is irrelevant : it doesn't free us from the task of
explicitly saying what we want. Saying "this software, being driven this
way or that way, offers real value" is not even an argument : it is
politics.
On the other hand, by stating that the feature A is missing, or that the
feature B should, in your opinion, be modified this way (the said way
being described in sufficient detail), you do something useful, because
you bring explicit, clear and logical arguments that people can
understand, reuse, and improve. If nobody ever does this, no wonder that
the development of TeXmacs is driven by the developers, because without
such a task of turning problems into explicit (possible) solutions, no
software development is possible !
I know that Joris does put many hours into the project, and my comment
wasn't on his or any other's work. What I was trying to say was that I
don't think that the direction of development should be guided by the
interests of the available workforce.
It is not a matter of available workforce : it is a matter of writing
specifications. If you want that your ideas become implemented, you must
first describe them in sufficient detail, otherwise it is **impossible**
to take any ideas into account, because unfortunatly, the current
"available workforce" has no telepathic abilities yet.
Best, Henri
Re: [TeXmacs] New mode for graphics, Nachiketa Sahoo, 09/28/2005
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